Hi Caedes,
I'm on a very short computer break... second coat of paint coming up.
Loved your point... BUT... You didn't play the game.
Please site any emperical proof of eros love and let me counter with seperate emperical explanation.
I truly beleive that I can establish the point that (based solely on tangible evidence) erotic love cannot be a scientific fact.
You obviously know where I'm going with this... I want the admission of (uncertainty that has been demanded of me) returned by my opponents. The ultimate effect of this will hopefully be that it shows the arrogance of any persons who feel justified in belittling the dreams of others. Regardless of their position....
gordon d
JoinedPosts by gordon d
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--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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gordon d
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145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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gordon d
Damn... went to sleep and the opposition moved the big artillery into firing range!
Fantastic points.... everyone! KW13 is really 18????? ...........Holy crap!
Please tell me again how any of you were ever witnesses?
I have to handle some business needs this morning, I also have to finalize preparations for the granite installers and I've yet to finish the woodwork or gas lines.... I should be able to respond to everyone's question/comments before the end of the day.
One more point. We keep bringing up the matter of tangible proof, emperical data, etc.... We've already established that this cannot be the appropriate measuring stick for the proof of God to openminded people. There are too many other feasible explanations.
Maybe it would be wise to establish a base for this debate by seeing if we all have the ability to discuss something more familiar within the parameters of a strictly emperical platform. I suggest love. Not agape love but something that far more people have experienced, eros.
The question is: Does eros love exist? Please confine your position, solely, to emperical data.
Hi Abaddon,
You said:
*****You don't even know where my buttons are*****
Sorry to burst your bubble...
The "button" that I referred too was a literal one, on my keyboard, that prematurely ended my response and then submitted a blank post. I then had to make a third post to complete the response If you want to believe that it was about you, that's your right.... but the data simply doesn't support it -
145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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gordon d
Hi Borgia,
I've stated many times that it may not be practical to put human constraints on non-human beings... but you made a good point. So for the sake of this discussion, (and since I started this whole analogy mess) lets place God in the role of a Human father.
Nice analogy. I have a son of 5 years old and he certainly shows this kind of behavior from time to time. However, when I try to invoke my help I have a few tools at my disposal:
1) I simply ask him if I can be of any assistance Is it possible that this was implanted in us at some point in our lives? 2) Depending on the necesity of getting the things fixed, I step in, talk to him and show him how to do it. Again, is it possible that this has been done for us at some point, perhaps through a third party, "instinctual" reasoning, or by blocking things that were beyond our control? Let him do it again and so he learns by getting a little help. **same point** Are Moms (possibly) a gift from God? 3) variant on 1 and 2: I show him step by step while discussing the issues he needs to look. **same point**.... who can say for sure?
Some weeks ago, he was looking for me but I was outside doing some gardening. He ran around inside and outside looking for me. It went from calling to shouting and panicking, because I did not hear him and I was not aware he was looking for me quite some time. Of course, if I had heard him, I would have answered him. Any father would do that, no?
Yes, I think that any loving father would respond to their child's call... perhaps even ANY child's call.
I would communicate in such a way that he can understand me! by speaking loud enough to be heard, by using words he is capable of comprehending, by example and directing his eyes so he sees what he needs to see. And I would do that every day.
You might even want to stay so close to him that he could always hear you.... anytime, day or night.
When I am gone on business travel, I use an array of devices like webcam, email, telephone, etc, in order to communicate with him daily. His first steps on the road in using these devices were of course guide by me. I taught him the principles, he is clever enough to expand on that.
So you are still "with him" even when he is seperated from you by some great distance.
In contrast..that entity you are relating to now, is a peculiar fellow. Not able to communicate with you untill you are ready, yet he created it all.....artisan for sure.
You've stated that you would answer your son when he called... Your son know's who you are, recognizes you, and talks to you... he loves you and needs you. You love him and you will always make sure that he can grow but that he is never in "over his head"
Will you "always" answer him, immediately, whenever he asks you a question? For example: You're watching him take a Math test in school and he waves you over?
Will you "always" speak to him in words that he can understand...even when you don't want him to understand something yet?
Will you always respond immediately whenever he fears that he is in danger? For example: You're teaching him to ride a bike, your hands are on both sides (just inches away) he cannot see you behind him but he's still saying "Dad, don't let go or I'll fall" and you actually let go some time ago and he is balancing himself..... Do you grab the bike because he asked?
2 more scenarios.. A bit more extreme:
Your son is 10 and has climbed up a tree that you told him (repeatedly) to never touch... it is covered in poison ivy. He's only 4 feet off the ground and you can see that he is more than capable of safely coming down by himself..... he is saying, "Dad, come get me down". Do you do it?
Your son has now turned 17... decided that you must hate him and that he hates you... he even says, "You are not my father" or " I didn't ask to be born" He still lives in the room that you provided for him but never says thank you, pays for anything he eats, doesn't even clean his room or wash his own clothes... he even feels that it IS HIS room. Something that he has a right to and can even lock you out of. He wants nothing to do with you, your instructions for him, your care... nothing.
He's out one night in an area you've told him never to go and gets arrested for assaulting a little old lady. Finally! He calls you and says, Dad can you bail me out? Do you drop everything and immediately "right all his wrongs" or do you let him experience "some" of the consequences of his actions.
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145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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gordon d
Hey Asheron,
Using your example shouldnt we ask God Believers (Theists) this question: "Are you so arrogant that you dont even consider the remotest possibility that there is no God?"
Absolutely!
I choose to eliminate the entire concept of "belief" from my thinking. I choose to accept facts based on currently provable (Via Scientific principles) realities while leaving the door open for future revelations and proofs. Thats the beauty of Science (not Scientists), it is self correcting. It never says I HAVE FOUND THE ULTIMATE TRUTH. Instead it says, Here is what we know now. It asks via peer review and other processes to be tested and checked, over and over. That is why we NOW know that the Atom is made of smaller particles. Someone kept checking the results looking for more data. Theism does not do this. It starts with an asumption and then seeks out facts that can prove the original belief. If Theism comes up against facts that disagree with the "God" question it will ussually deny them or atribute it to "Gods Mystery". I can give many examples of this but my favorite is the "God put Dino bones in the ground to test us". Where do you draw the line on belief. Do you believe everything? If not what constitutes proof? That is where the debate can occur.
I dont "believe"that I am a human living on planet Earth, I AM a human living on a planet Earth. Belief has no effect on this reality. It either is true or it is not true. I can believe that I am a fire truck but unless I have wheels and a red light on top and a large ladder I am not a fire truck. What I believe has no value in the discussion of whether or not I AM a fire truck. (By the way I am not a Fire Truck..I am a nice yellow Taxi)
I cannot disagree with your logic or reasoning on ANY of this.... ( If you want to be a Taxi that's fare... but at the rate you're going, you'll live a checkered life )
However, one of my points is that there are possible limitations to this line of reasoning. We have established a "rule" for what a firetruck is. You can accurately say that you are or are not a firetruck because you do not qualify, according to the rules. Mankind has had numerous "rules" for what a "God" creature must be (some of these are absolutely ridiculous) but even if all known rules are discarded, we still make some requirements that "have to be met". Saying that "God cannot exist" implies that he has not met some rule based upon tactile, visual, or logical markers.
If you had a brother, that died at sea, you had no pictures of him, nothing with a signature, just a few items that you "said" that he built, and a few people that claimed to have met him would I have the right to believe that he was possibly nothing more than a figment of your imagination.... certainly. I might demand some proof because I had never seen him and even the things that you claimed he made had other (possible) explanations..... but YOU would not need anything else because you knew him, communicated with him, and loved him. It is the same way for those that have experienced God. Would your claims about him hold up in court? Would that ever changed how you felt about him?
Its simple really, either God exists or he does not exist. I think you have chosen to believe that he does based on the "evidence" that binds your reality I.E. The change of your "personality". But consider for a minute (like the atomic example above) what if you are wrong? Would this really destroy your world view? Would this change your personality or would it present you with a new challenge. The challenge of determining what within you had the power to effect the positive change you expierianced.
You're right... it's very simple. Either I am right or I am dillusional.
If I'm right... Great!
If I'm wrong... I would probably never know.
If I'm right... I have more joy, more hope, a better quality life now, and a chance at immortality.
If I'm wrong... I have more joy, more hope, a better quality life now
The thought of returning to agnostic beliefs just doesn't have the appeal that it used too.....
Plus, my feelings are based on a bond so strongly and innately a part of me, I would probably be more likely to deny the existence of George Bush (wishfull thinking) someone that I have never met and that I could probably rationalize another explanation for all the evidence supporting him. Than to ever deny my friend, my father, and my God..... I don't know how else to put it... Once he "bonds" with you... it changes everything! And it's all in a Good way!!!
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Utah JW Pedophile Confesses
by Gerard inhttp://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=641356.
man who confessed to molesting children goes to court todaynovember 13th, 2006 @ 6:56amupdate: court officials tell ksl the hearing is not scheduled for today.
gene kennedy reporting.
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gordon d
The only reason he confessed to this is because it happened in Utah... all he has to do is marry both of the girls before they turn 10 and the charges will be dismissed!
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I HAVE TO KNOW WHAT DOES duh stand for?
by inlove in"as mentioned in last nights meeting, keep knocking, keep searching for it (the truth.. little-by-little, jehovah will reveal it to those with the right heart.
condition at the proper time.as mentioned in.
i have no need nor the desire tolook anywhere else for the truth or consider any other view points, be it letters from people that "claim" to be witnesses or from web sites and the.
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gordon d
Ooopps.... I guess I misread your question.... please dis-regard the above post
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22
I HAVE TO KNOW WHAT DOES duh stand for?
by inlove in"as mentioned in last nights meeting, keep knocking, keep searching for it (the truth.. little-by-little, jehovah will reveal it to those with the right heart.
condition at the proper time.as mentioned in.
i have no need nor the desire tolook anywhere else for the truth or consider any other view points, be it letters from people that "claim" to be witnesses or from web sites and the.
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gordon d
Hi InLove. Welcome to the board
We had a topic that led to this subject as part of the discussion.. it's gotten pretty lengthy but there may be something of interest to you towards the later posts....
You may want to take a Tylenol before reading the whole thing!
here's the link:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/124057/1.ashx
Here also is a quote from that thread.... My answering another poster's question.
So on what, exactly do you base your "Pro-God" belief system? You haven't exactly explained your side of the argument during the course of this thread, even though you've required atheists to explain the basis for their belief system. Care to try? If it isn't anything to do with the "god" of the bible / New Testament, how do you regard yourself as a Christian? (I've been reviewing your posting history... )
It's not easy for me to communicate here, in writing... but if you really want to know, I'll give it a try... that's only fair.
I have some reservations about the Bible as we know it today. A history of it's origin and it's preservation cause more confusion than confirmation. I also do not believe that anything that we might generally consider as religion is a fundamental part of the intimate relationship that we can have with another being. Just as going through the ceremony of marriage does not automatically make you any "closer" to your spouse. However, I do believe that humans posses the abilty to "bond" with others on a level that science cannot explain. I feel that religions have been guilty of portraying an impression of God that is far removed from his true nature. I also believe that God has allowed this (and human suffering) for a reason and that he will not allow the current situation to last forever. But that is another topic, entirely.
I do believe in the biblical and historical accounts of Jesus.... also, that he was born into human form and ultimately acted as a sacrifice for the foundation of a new covenant between God and mankind. As ridiculous and barbaric as this originally sounded to me, the more searching that I did, the more "sense" that it made..... not to Western or even Eastern thinking but in equilibrium, at a higher level. I do believe that Christ is an entirely seperate entity than the one that "sent" him and has his own will and own thoughts. These views I can only support as being attained through spiritual enlightenment.... even an ability to discern man-made thoughts from God-inspired ones. I realize that this sounds like a form a mental illness but it does not manifest any of the traits of such a malidy (apart from the possibility of a transfixed delusionalism that has no accompanying psychoses... practically an unheard of condition) I do not believe that it is the place of anyone who has gained enlightenment to arbitrarily share knowledge with someone that is not given their own knowledge from spiritual powers. For example, translating of an understanding of a "true" Biblical parable to someone who has no real desire for the knowledge or no love for the will of the one who created it.
I am not saying that I've been given mystical powers? I am saying that an unexplainable change occured during my search for God. This change resulted to an immediate opening of my eyes to spiritual matters that had escaped me (no matter how much I had meditated on them in the past). Some people may refer to this as being born again, seeing the light, or becoming one with God. It's impossible to explain, there simply are no words for it. I would have NEVER believed it as something from God, at any point in my life... until it happened. The people that say one becomes a "new creature" are right..... just ask those that knew me before and after. It is not the same as the transformation of an achoholic in recovery, or a psych patient experiencing a breakthrough.... it is a complete changing of a persons very being. I fully realize that no one who has yet to experience this for themselves would ever understand it... but at the moment that it happens, you completely understand, and you have a peace that overwhelms you.
I hope this helps! You're welcome to PM me if you want to talk.
P.S. WELCOME BACK SPARKY!!!!!!!!!
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145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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gordon d
Hi Caedes... it's a pleasure to meet you.
would the answers you've had from the atheists here lead you to question your pre-suppositions? I mean every one of the replies you've had should lead you to realise that atheism isn't quite the bleak existence you supposed.
I agree that atheism is a far superior lifestyle than that afforded by most religions... There is more freedom, happiness, and yes "Hope". I've obviously done a poor job of expressing that there exist a spirituality separate from religious dogma. I'm not sure why, but people seem to keep making reference to the "God" they learned about while participating in some organization. Even though they fully realize that that organization lied to them... Why is it so difficult to realize that THEY LIED ABOUT GOD TOO!!!
"but doesn't the bible say".... Stop! Didn't the organization give you THAT TOO?
I also wonder how you feel your evangelizing compares to what you claim atheist's do when they present a rationalist worldview.
I think there is a difference between answering a question about one's personal beliefs and making an unsolicated insult towards someone that is in their own searching process. Insinuations that another person's belief are foolish and that their consideration of something unknown makes them less intelligent than those that have resigned themselves to "reality" as they know it. I started this thread in response to those actions.... All of my commenst are here for review, If I have ever offered my beleifs in an unsolicted, unwelcome, or ceorcive manner... then I am guilty of what I criticize and a hypocrite.
I also wonder how you feel your evangelizing compares to what you claim atheist's do when they present a rationalist worldview.
Again, It's NOT about the atheist viewpoint...If that is satisfactory for the person that beleives it ... GREAT! It's about (some atheists) arrogance and lack of tact.
How does my evangilizing compare?...... It is highly speculative, highly irrational, but just as viable as anyone else's opinion... I just hope it's not delivered in an offensive manner.
By the way I would try hard not to reply with the 'I've been where you are now' line, if you don't mind!
Point taken..... and well! Dale Carnagie????
Thanks!
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145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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gordon d
My Bad!!! Scully DID answer the question but her answer was not the (really stupid) one that I needed to make my point... so I'm waiting for another one. :) I'm not familiar with the term pantheist... time to go Googling.
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145
--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----
by gordon d inwhich child is wiser?
while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!
the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!
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gordon d
I didn't really want to do this, but what the hell?
This is only directed at certain people... If it offends you, you're probably one of them!
Quoting (not accurately) from Phoebe to Ross on the show Friends during a debate about evolution.
"Wasn't there a time when the world's greatest minds thought that the atom was the smallest thing in the universe.... until they opened one up and all this stuff came flying out? Are you telling me that you are SO arrogant that you don't even consider the remotest possibilty, that there might be some teeny-tiny chance that scientist are wrong about this too? Is THAT what you're telling me? If so, I think maybe it's time you put "Ross" under the microscope!"